Not a mystery to be good at martial applications

Dear Master Hwa,

"I have become impatient with the slowness of the learning curve regarding Classical Tai Chi for this reason alone: the forms playing does not seem to be leading to martial application, and there does not seem to be any partners out this way who know Classical Tai that I can practice.

So, I am enrolling in a Wing Chun class through a park district close to where I live. My first class was this past Wednesday, and I asked for an opportunity to use what I have learned in the Forms playing with the Sifu that is teaching the class. Here is the scenario. He asked me to use a boxing jab to try to attack him. He became aggressive immediately by using a barrage of strikes, blocks, and forward motion. I used circular defensive arm moves while playing Repulse Monkey. I could feel my internal energy in my Dan Tien and quarter body moves. However, Sifu was able to tag me in the face. In blocking his punches, I received a large bruise on the top of my left hand. We did not have padded gloves.  OK, so here is the question. How did he get inside me so quickly?  It was all a blur. Now, given I was not as aggressive as I could have been. I did pull back. But still, he got close to me very quickly, and stuck to me. It was like I was pulling him round trying to free up some space between us. He had the advantage. He was fighting on the inside before I could do anything effective."

When I used Fair Lady Works the Shuttle as he squared off with me, my ward off was good using the turning of the waist and arms connected to the upper body while lower body stayed rooted. But he grabbed my T-Shirt as he went in the other direction and used the power I used to move away from him after the ward off as a way of sticking to me. He could have hit me in the temple, or in the back of the head. But it was a demonstration I had asked for and so he did not.  I did knock him off balance because he was double waited at the time. That felt good.

In another demonstration, Sifu wanted to prove a point that he could finger jab me in the sternum before I could do anything about it. He was lightening fast. I was not fast enough to block his incoming force. Probably because my reflexes are not as highly developed as his. Thinking back, I could have turned my upper body quadrant away from his incoming force, but didn't because he wanted to square of with him. I simply followed instructions.

Here is where you come in Master Hwa. I need your concerted effort in analyzing what happened. I know that you where not there and did not have an opportunity to observe my form and delivery. But you have observed my playing the Forms both in Florida and Buffalo. you also have your own experience and wisdom in how you might have handle these situations.  

Don't pull any punches :)  The above could be a good subject matter in one of your Forums e.g. how is it that we are employing martial application along with our Form playing.

By the way, how does it take to be a Tai Chi fighter? Have you had sparring experience?

Hope all is well with you and your family.

Jim 

Hi James: There is no mystery to be good at martial art application. This is discussed in my book and video.

You need to go through three steps:

1. Develop internal energy or power through Form practice, so that one can deliver the power at any angle and position.

2. Practice the form such that the ability of delivery becomes instinctive, no need to think.

3. Practice push hand and sparing to develop sensitivity and finesse.

As I recall when you visited me in Florida, you were not close to master step 1. You were able to use internal at several moves but not all angles. From your description of your sparing experience, you still need to think when you move. No wonder you were always one step behind, and being controlled by the opponent.

Step 3 needs partner to practice. There is no short cut to that.

I hope I have answered your questions.

Stephen Hwa

"There are no winning moves, only winning execution of moves"...Stephen Hwa

Hi James,

I studied at Wu's Tai Chi Academy in Toronto for some time, then I met Stephen Hwa and my Tai Chi got better.  I was doing Tae Kwon Do at the time  at Wu's and my skills were not great, nor were my Tai Chi fighting skills in the studio.  On the street however, I was able to defend myself quite adequately as I had the misfortune of being attacked/mugged on several occasions. I found in Tae Kwon Do some different experiences than I found at Wu's.  For instance, with Tai Chi I found  myself in situations where I ended up grappling but in Tae Kwon Do   I did not. 

I had quite a number of occasions to spar in both arts and even to use Tae Kwon Do against Tai Chi people. I find myself thinking here of Grandmaster Young Wabu and his expression of the difficulty he had in forgetting the external arts he learned.  In other words, I think he felt it did not help his Tai Chi. I found that there were some Tai Chi people that could not deal with my kicks and there were some who could.  I found that there were some people who could deal with my punches and there were some who could not. I submit the following: To use Tai Chi against Tai Chi, Tae Kwon Do, Wing Chun, etc., etc. is not a matter of proving which art is "better".  It is a matter of which opponent is "better" at the art they are using. I believe there is an adage that says: “It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.” 

― Mark Twain


Why not get some Wing Chun people to spar against you while you do Tai Chi, why "throw out the baby with the bath water"? In Tai Chi one does not use "boxing jab to attack him", it is a pure defensive art, why not an agreeable "sparring" situation, where he uses a boxing jab to attack you?  Anyway, all this proves is he is better at Wing Chun than you are at Tai Chi, not Wing Chun is better than Tai Chi. I don't wish to analyze your synopsis any more because it reads the same throughout.

If one wants to get better at Tai Chi,  it requires sensitivity to opponents movement, ability to ting jin, stick to opponent and to have  intelligence under pressure.   I see no reason why any of that cannot be maintained into old age.  Even Western Boxing's clinch (before it became the disgraceful stalling tactic it is now) could be said to have once relied on some semblance of sensitivity. Even with that the bout between Mike Tyson and Larry Holmes went to grappling and trapping range 10 times in the first three minutes...once every 18 seconds. This means "practicing push hands and sparring to develop sensitivity and finesse" with a variety of opponents. 

 How can anyone expect to develop sticking from just practicing the form?   I see no place where Master Hwa promises a "flowering" of self defense ability. Additionally, no one ever promised folks "Pie in the Sky" in Classical Tai Chi and on the contrary the limitations of what we do have been spelled out even more than I got at Wu's.  Learning to stick to opponent in close quarters   This step requires willing and trusted partner and ones own willing participation. How to learn to spar with Tai Chi, particularly  if one can find a Wing Chun partner , particularly one who is physically stronger then they will find the guy will just ram down your centerline and smash you out of the way...like what you describe. Then you have  to stick with his smashing, not run away.

As one gets older, they are no longer going to be the fastest or strongest so they have to rely on feeling out the opponent.  If one can't beat with speed then you  have to stick.  This does not mean you are not going to get hit.  In his fight with a Hard Style opponent, Wu Gong Yi was limited by rules not to stick, if he could then I think things would be much different and perhaps not "called a draw". 

If one is moving from Tai Chi to Wing Chun having some idea of the difference between Wing Chun and Tai Chi comes with research before starting.  My student Anh Le does Wing Chun and also spars with people who do mixed Martial Arts.  He also admits there are things that he personally can do and cannot do and although he is defeated, he does not blame either Tai Chi or Wing Chun, he has enough reasoning ability to put the onus squarely on his own shoulders. He states that Chi Sao in Wing Chun is done with arms that move independently of the torso in straight line fashion and yin yang junctions are at the shoulder in contrast to that of Tai Chi. 

It is interesting that chi sao in Wing Chun which to the uninitiated "looks" like Tai Chi push hands emphasizes economy of movement and decrease in circular action by centering the elbow in straight line arm movements. On the contrary, we  see  centering of elbow in tight compact form with a subsequent increase in circular action.  If one does not posess number 1 where internal power can be delivered at any angle, much less from one's own center how on earth can one expect to attack an opponent when one cannot even protect oneself by sticking, which comes from push hands which have  never even done?

You wish me to be honest, not pull punches, I would say get a  "grip", so to speak.  How can one  with  reasoning that Tai Chi is not good enough, also expect to reconcile the attitude "I'm here to learn to kick him in the *&%$" that I heard at the workshop.  How does that reconcile   with "He who knows much is learned; he who knows himself is wise. He who rules others has the power of muscles; he who rules himself has strength?"  Once again, who is attacking you?  Do you get mugged just walking out the door, simplest martial art would be the art of "getting out of Dodge"...move your belongings to another section of town, I see no one else but you, where are the muggers?   Wishful thinking and an   "I wannabe" attitude , to learn to "kill 10 people at one fell swoop" from any martial art...ain't going to happen. If 10 guys jump you, then hope they have mercy.

What do you think about my adding a Wing Chung Traditional Wooden Dummy along with my learning the 108 Classical Tai Chi Forms?

What do you think my about adding a Free Standing Makiwara Board to my regimen?

The impetus for my questions has to do with my desire to move into martial application. I do not know that mastering the Forms is going to be enough for me at this point. I liked what I observed at the training in Buffalo last summer between you and a student regarding "Carrying the Tiger to the Mountain."

I have been practicing Classical Tai Chi for 7 plus years, and am on the 98th Form, and anticipate finishing sometime in 2012. I feel alive, and competent when practicing Wudang Tiger Tail Short Staff, and powerful when palm striking and kicking a 4 x 4 free standing piece of wood outdoors. I have an appreciation for my adequate self defense skills in what I have learned in all these disciplines.

Your feedback will be greatly appreciated.

OK, you ask for "feedback" and I am not going to pull my punches, which by the way Tai Chi does not do anyway:

How do you figure a striking post will help?  If one cannot muster internal power for application, isn't this a weakness that is a priori to any "striking post"?  Want to get better?  Then develop internal power for application.  Other than that you are relegated to using external force which gives you no advantage over a more accomplished external martial artist, as you clearly illustrated.  Master Hwa tells me even some retired old ladies that he teaches seem to enjoy using their newly acquired semi-internal power to push people around.

To paraphrase Master Hwa's statement about "winning moves":  "There are no winning martial arts, only winning execution of martial arts" , in other words it is the size of the fight in the dog, not the dog that is in the fight.  

James R.

Knock yourself over with your own "holding pattern"

From the web page of Master Stephen Hwa in 2005 and updated in 2012 for this Blog: "I am pleased to announce and congratulate the first certified teacher of Classical Tai Chi is Jim Roach of Buffalo, NY. He is extremely dedicated and accomplished. Jim has another background in such diverse external styles as Karate and Tae Kwon Do but Jim began his Tai Chi study in 1976. He subsequently studied Yang and Wu's Style of Tai Chi, even while he was studying Tae Kwon Do in Buffalo. He spent much of his time traveling back and forth to Toronto Canada over the years at least once a week, sometimes more to study with very notable teachers. Jim had the privilege to study with and become a disciple of the Great-grandson of legendary Grandmaster Wu Chien Chuan, Master Wu Kwong Yu.  


Jim became actively engaged in study with Master Hwa in April of 2003.  Since that time, Jim has engaged in numerous private instruction classes with Master Hwa as well as group classes. He also assisted and participated in many of the scenes of the DVD "Tao of Martial Applications".  In addition, he appears in several photographs of the book "Uncovering the Treasure".  After only a short time, Jim  was (to paraphrase Master Hwa ) "fascinated with the underlying principles that unified Classical Tai Chi’s seemingly complex movements." 


In addition to  Ken-Ton community education classes where Jim taught under Master Hwa's personal and direct supervision (Master Hwa was in attendance to monitor Jim's classes). Jim is actively seeking out experienced Tai Chi or other Martial Art students in order to conduct further workshops and classes in Classical Tai Chi. While he was an employee of the U.S. Customs Service, Jim conducted self-defense classes at the Federal Building in Buffalo, NY as well as Customs Inspectors at the Peace Bridge.. He has also conducted workshops and personal instruction in Tai Chi to continuing education programs at local public schools, hospitals as well as medical professionals. He has also taught Tai Chi to Karate Instructors and Karate Studios in Buffalo."  Master Stephen Hwa

You can visit his webpage: Classical Tai Chi of Buffalo

Once in awhile I have taught  Tai Chi  to students that have previously studied Tai Chi, Karate, Kung Fu, etc. I have  students now that have studied both Tai Chi and "hard" styles as well.  One of those students is still involved with studying Wing Chun along with his study of Classical Tai Chi.  I recall teaching someone who owned his own Karate Studio and who had become a martial arts legend of sorts.  He saw me practicing the Wu's Sword Form and asked to learn it.  I said I would teach it if he would learn the Wu's style 108 long from from me. He appeared in the “Inside Kung Fu” magazine because of his prowess in several other martial arts and was versed in many weapons forms.   Grandmaster Young Wabu who Master Hwa  states was versed in many martial arts as well as being a master of Pekkwar Monkey boxing when he met Wu Chien Chuan.   The Karate teacher unfortunately did not stick with Tai Chi as did Grandmaster Young with Wu Chien Chuan or learn the sword, as he stated he was “bored” learning the long form.

I noticed when I taught the Karate teacher however that he constantly had his shoulders in a "holding pattern" of being hunched forward and held very tightly.  I also noticed it was very difficult for him to "release" the holding pattern to drop the shoulders, in fact I never saw him able to do it at all.  This gave his back a constant hunched appearance, causing the chin to jut out.  The hunching and tightening seemed to extend to the lower torso where he was unable to loosen the buttocks to straighten the back and thus free the waist to turn freely. 

In thinking of "ingrained" muscular tension as a holding pattern, I also came across this message from a 2004 post in the Classical Tai Chi Forum on a student's previous experience with other arts and its effect on learning Classical Tai Chi:

"I am coming from a karate background.  For me it (classical tai chi ) is like learning karate all over again. Learning how to walk, turn, block and strike. The 'square form' is much easier for me to follow. It is more familiar to me. Coming from a 'hard' style, I find it hard to relax as I do the form. It is ingrained to tense as the blocks or strikes are applied. I can find many practical martial moves in the form. Understand that in karate katas not every move is explained as to application unless you ask the instructor, 'how is this used'? All blocks are also strikes, and all strikes are also blocks. To me it seems Tai Chi is a form of martial arts Qi Gong. This is great as my body can no longer tolerate a 'hard' style.

A comment on “Kata” by Master Hwa from the context of “Yi” in another Forum: “ External martial arts such as Karate also practice a solo form called Kata. Kata allows the practitioner to study movements at full power and speed and allows the student to move with the enemy in mind. So, both Tai Chi form and Kata is practiced with “Yi”. But, Kata is practiced with a tensed up arm moving with power and speed: while Tai Chi is practiced with a relaxed arm and moving at a slow speed. The “Yi” in Tai Chi is therefore purely mental.”

I have a suspicion however that tensed up body parts are not strictly the domain of Karate practitioners. I see them over and over again in students who do not study other martial arts.  I find many, many students who state they only want Tai Chi for "health".  Yet, many of these practitioners are so tense, it looks like their extremities are literally tied into holding patterns. Although, I think in the case of karate there are a number of them with such repetitive movement in Katas where it eventually becomes what is called a “holding pattern”.  In other words their arms, shoulders, backs, chests, etc. get more or less locked into a detrimental position.  I speak not as just a Tai Chi practitioner but as a former Karate and Tae Kwon Do practitioner with an advanced belt.

Master Hwa has talked about how the practitioner needs to not “tense up” during push hands training.  I vividly remember my own push hands training with Yang Style then later at the Wu’s Academy in Toronto.  I was always urged to “sitback” in order to loosen my back and waist, with danger of “getting pushed” ever present.  I was told over and over to "relax", "relax", "you have got to relax or you will get pushed". At Wu’s Academy this often consisted of a free style where one would end up on the floor or bounced off a wall.  This was not the “mean spirited” actions of my fellow student, it was my own body tension and they really only had to apply very little of a very gentle “push” in order to send me flying.  Often I found myself on the floor or slammed against the wall because I was retreating with a tensed up body and tripped myself up…the other practitioner had not even pushed me.

“Holding patterns?”  In all the times I was “sent flying” I did not learn "why". Flailing one's extremities will do nothing for showing where one has excess muscular tension.  It has only been through the study of the Classical Tai Chi Form and Internal Discipline that the fog has lifted. It is anathema to correct practice to use external movements while attempting an internal movement.  It is anathema to correct practice to use extraneous movement while attempting internal movement.  Extraneous movement, tensing a shoulder here, tensing an arm there, etc.  occurs because one simply cannot sense it happening...and  I eventually came to learn I had some extremity that was held tensed or even crooked.  This extremity sent tension into the entire body and provided an easy target, as I proved over and over, ostensibly even knocking my own self to the ground with no one touching me…just my own fear and tension doing the job.

Classical Tai Chi is good for you in many ways

It seems that there is no one who has not received the news that Tai Chi is important for health.  The Taoist Tai Chi Society for instance went from being martially oriented at its inception to a total health orientation.    I was one of the earliest members in Buffalo and so I know this from experience. Yet, former teachers of the Taoist Tai Chi state unequivocally that most who enter their doors will stop.  I have had my own share of drop outs and one begins to  wonder if the best way to get more people to do Classical Tai Chi is to tout the health benefits after all.

What makes an individual committed to Tai Chi? How much of a motivation are all the health claims of Tai Chi?

When it comes to exercise, (and let's face it, Tai Chi falls into the larger overall "exercise" group whether we afficionados like to admit it or not), lots of folks react adversely to even the thought of exercise. Researchers have even pointed out that some forms of exercise are bad for cardio health.  My wife's Uncle recently had a heart attack after running a marathon and has been a runner for 25 years.  Don't you just feel  this just makes you the best excuse not to run?  On the other hand isn't that just an assumption that you are motivated by concern for your health from the very start?

My M.D. who is originally from Shanghai, used to tell anyone and everyone who would listen:  "Jim does Tai Chi, Jim does Tai Chi". He never had to tell me as I heard him tell others: "You need to do some better things to improve your health".  I have no doubt that statement could motivate some patients. The motivation undoubtedly wears off after awhile.  People don't feel things like bones, hormones and blood pressure making a change for the better.

My wife along with her friends will tell you they go to the lady's fitness factory to lose weight. My wife is a diehard for she tells me there are many more who had the same (what are really hard to see) goals that quit.  She states that most say they "are busy with other things", "don't have the time", "too tired after work".  Some will also never say "I just lost interest".

I have looked and looked for good research as to why people keep doing Tai Chi and have not found it. There is certainly no research whatsoever on why people keep doing Classical Tai Chi.  I would bet however, that people derive pleasure from doing it, like me, they feel energized afterward.  My mood is improved and the hard to put your finger on "restlessness" (because I have not done Tai Chi yet)is gone.  I doubt there is no way one can "will" themselves to have these reactions.

I wonder if some of us aren't pre-programmed to make these choices to do things that are good for us and keep doing them. Like my wife's Uncle for instance who has stopped marathons and gone to an exercise bike only temporarily.  If you ask him he will tell you that the act of moving simply makes him feel good. But he'll also state that it does not bring the same "high" that that a marathon brings.  So one has to assume that exercise has to be mind bending difficult for some to feel good. So were those diehards initially motivated by the idea of improving their hearts, etc.?  Is a long distance runner (and I've encountered a few) motivated to do Classical Tai Chi by the idea of improving their cardio?

The Uncle keeps running even though the Doctors told him to stop and they know that he won't, and he has not.   In talks with him, he seems to identify himself with running.

I played basketball at a very high level in school and in the armed service.  If you asked me at that time, I would have said that I enjoyed the competition and loved to win games.  I lost all interest in the sport after leaving the service and I know I was depressed because I knew I was not going to compete at that level ever again. I struggled with finding ways to motivate myself once again.

Nowdays, I do Classical Tai Chi and take very long walks with our 2 dogs.  My schedule for Classical Tai Chi is quite extensive for exercise purposes because I include the days that I teach as well as the days that I do it for myself.  I have to think that my motivation has changed considerably from my younger days.  I desire to "stay in the springtime of my life as I grow older".  On the other hand, I get a great deal of pleasure from doing the Tai Chi, it is very challenging, I keep finding ways to challenge myself with it and to challenge my students, and I feel it is extremely important to my sense of well-being.  I feel like my day is not complete unless I do Tai Chi.

So I begin to wonder, is the best thing to encourage people to do Classical Tai Chi by telling them it is good for their health? I have a top Cancer research scientist as a student.  I wonder how she would react if the Tai Chi affected her adversely, would she be deterred from continuing? Perhaps I'll ask her one day.  What would it mean to her for instance if the Tai Chi made her blood pressure rise instead of fall?  She does not appear to be as enamored of it as I do, so perhaps I would be the one who would say: "I don't care if blood pressure rises a few points, I'm going to keep doing Classical Tai Chi because it feels good, pure and simple".

Correct alignment and structure is not a myth in Classical Tai Chi

A student recently told me that he was somewhat surprised at the statement in the Tai Chi Classics from Wu Chien Chuan : “The failure of drooping the buttocks is a hindrance to the loosening of one's waist". See: Wu Chien Chuan's Six Essential Points: Point III on Tucking or Drooping the Buttocks . I think he was surprised that the drooping or tucking as it is most often called is so directly related to “loosening”.

Wu is referring to the lumbar vertebrae or as it is sometimes called "the tailbone" and it normally protrudes near the sacrum. It is also a "junction" which acts as a Yin/Yang junction. One can say the junction defines vertical and horizontal between vertebrae and sacrum and has its own particular/normal angle of protrusion from such vertical. When one bends their legs however, the tailbone should also "normally" begin to reposition itself from its protruding angle and toward a more vertical position. In such movement, the curve of the tailbone allows it to "tuck" under the sacrum. One only has to duplicate the act of standing and bending the knees to feel this. This can be duplicated without forcibly jamming under the tailbone as though one were aiming to cement it into position and hold it there. Unfortunately, there is much misunderstanding about this both from students and the uninitiated who tend to think it has to be forced and held, thus resulting in undesirable and detrimental body positions.

This is also where it is important to remember to "suspend the head as though held from above by a string" and tuck the chin under...gently One's chest or thoracic vertebrae is not to be pushed outward in order to accomplish this. In doing so, one can feel quite a dynamic but pleasant stretch of the spine and para-spinal musculature both up and down the back. One also feels a stretch up the front and side of the torso as the rib cage feels as though it is "opening", for that is indeed what it is doing.

In allowing the "buttocks to droop" one can begin to feel the response of a pull of gravity from the earth. After all you are literally "dropping" something and it is quite natural for gravity to mazimize its influence. The body above this area has its own natural response which is the "opposing force". It should reflexively, repeat "reflexively", all conditions being equal, stretch up in response to the pull of gravity on the sacrum.

When these conditions are met, true “loosening” means cultivating the ability to actually turn the waist and not the rib cage/thoracic vertebrae, shoulders/arms; we mean the actual waist beneath the belly button.  This is a twisting or turning of the lower or lumbar vertebrae wherein the belly button actually moves in horizontal/left and right directions. It is recommended by this teacher, and well documented and video by Master Stephen Hwa that students begin to experience this by sitting down.  Why sitting down?  Well, for one thing the hips become stationary so there is no turning of the hips that can occur.  What does the twist comprise?  The twist should comprise a turning of the core around the lumbar vertebrae from sternum down to pelvic bone.

As we have previously stated in the blog about anterior vs. posterior tucking what is considered “normal” standing keeps an “s” curve in the lumbar region of the back.  This type of standing which is the darling anatomical pose of so many anatomy books and super model photographs,  actually keeps a great deal of tension in the abdomen and small of the back.  In fact while standing in the “s” curve, I observe most even lock their knees. In this position one can feel consistent pressure in the heels and ankles. These are quite small bone structures that are really not designed to carry and support one’s weight. That is opposed to the superior weight bearing capabilities of the long bones of the legs and quadriceps muscles.

Now we must further understand the reasoning and method of “drooping” or “tucking” in the buttocks. This is further explained by Master Hwa as he has used an important term by stating that “energizing” the waist is really the key.  “Energizing is a selective utilization of certain muscles for certain functions. Energizing has the character of agility, a sudden surge and ebb and is not static.  Even the “tuck in” should be fluid in nature. Even if one is fully tucked in, one should still have suppleness or (SOONG).

The problem of not “loosening” seems to occur most often when students use the rectus abdominus  (front of abdomen) muscle which pulls the belly backward.  Then they attempt to engage the external and internal oblique muscles and also use the transverse abdominal muscles to turn the waist. Inevitably beginners find that they cannot turn the waist fluidly because all the muscles in that area remain tight.  What they need to do is called by different terms such as open the back, droop the buttocks, lower the tailbone but most of all straighten the back and fluidly straighten the “s” curve.  I say fluidly because this is a dynamic function not a static one, the “s” curve, straightens, then returns, straightens, then returns.

A simple image to keep in mind might be the action of very flexible spring such as a ‘Slinky” toy. The Slinky has the ability to not only flex at any point but to lengthen and contract.  In this regard  a simple lengthening of the back can be understood as a straight forward lengthening of the device.  Drooping or tucking as a lengthening and subsequent flexion or “J” curve at the very tail end of the slinky. A full tuck or full drooping of the buttocks is well within the capabilities of any student  but an understanding of how to use it also comes with experience. One might say as we have said before, it is “dynamic” which also comprises “selective utilization” of muscles.

A student progresses in overall understanding of such “selective utilization of certain muscles” largely via the feedback of body sensation. A student progresses in overall understanding through the experience of doing this. A student progresses in overall understanding hopefully through early realization that a teacher applies rigor to teaching methodology for many reasons. Not the least of which is how set in their physical and mental ways and how un-responsive to change the majority of students can naturally be. After all, we have formed habits over the course of a lifetime but we expect to ditch them in a series of "Introductory Tai Chi lessons"?


Not so much of a surprise if one thinks of how much the core muscles are in located in such proximity to each other and how difficult it is to specifically isolate individual muscles.  Also not so much of a surprise if one has come to a visceral understanding of the sensations one experiences when one is energizing the rectus abdominus muscles to pullback or sitback the body.  Master Hwa has previously stated that the rectus abdominus and external/internal oblique muscles are next to each other in the same region.  In terms of sensation this means that one can receive muscle signals that seem mixed.  However with an eye to eliminating both mental and indiscriminate muscle tension a student learns as Master Hwa states: to mentally and physically “sharpen the yin-yang differentiation in any movement so that only the necessary muscle is energized while the rest of the body is relaxed”.

Wu Chien Chuan's Six Essential Points: Point III on Tucking or Drooping the Buttocks

                                           Grandmasters Wu Chien Chuan and Young Wabu


Someone has left a new comment on your post "Anterior vs. Posterior tuck in Classical Tai Chi":
"The spine is designed to be 'S' shaped. Tucking in the 'tailbone' reduces the flexed shape of the lower spine, creates greater rigidity and is likely to lead to serious injury. This tucking posture is one of the great myths of the martial arts - often propounded by people looking to find a unique property to separate their (supposedly) true to the classics version of an art from everyone else. Not recommended, and generally not supported by original texts. That this is encouraged in the US - also known as the Land of the 3 Minute Masters - is not really surprising. Disappointing though, yes."

• The spine is designed to be S shaped
• Tucking in the tailbone reduces the flexed shape of the lower spine, creates greater rigidity and is likely to lead to serious injury. 
• This tucking posture is one of the great myths of the martial arts often propounded by people looking to find a unique property to separate their (supposedly) true to the classics version of an art from everyone else.
• Not recommended, and generally not supported by original texts. 
• That is encouraged in the US - also known as the Land of the 3 Minute Masters - is not really surprising.

Here is a response to your commentary, thank you for your thoughts on the article.


Point III. "The Loosening of the Waist and the Drooping of the Buttocks": p. 73, Tai Chi Ch'uan: The Technique of Power by Tem Horwitz, Susan Kimmelman. 


Point III. "The Loosening of the Waist and the Drooping of the Buttocks", Wu Chia T'ai Chi Ch'uan (吳家太極拳, Wu family T'ai Chi Ch'uan) also known as The Gold Book: by Wu Kung-tsao, the second son of Wu Chien-ch'uan, 


I quote Wu Chien Chuan: "The idea of loosening the waist is to make the waist light and relaxed.  In Tai Chi Ch'uan all the turnings and shiftings of the body weight are controlled by the waist.  In the Song of the Thirteen Postures it is written:  " The source of command for all movements lies in the waist". If one's waist is at ease and relaxed, not only can one's intrinsic energy easily sink into the "tan-tien" and flow freely and actively, but the lower part of the body can be strengthened and one avoids having the mistake of having the upper part heavy and the lower part light.  To droop the buttocks is to allow the buttocks to sink vertically so that they do not protrude.  Particularly when one squats one should pay special attention not to violate these rules.  The failure of drooping the buttocks is a hindrance to the loosening of one's waist". 

"The Dao of Taijiquan"

"Hello. My name is Bayne Lucero. I would so much be honoured to be able to study Tai Chi Chuan under Sifu Roach. I have a good friend that is a student of Chinese internal martial arts. When I called him about having an interest & advice, told him about Classical Tai Chi of Buffalo & Master Hwa, he became very excited. Saying the best book he ever read was "The Dao of Taijiquan". He also said that his teacher was a great fan of Master Hwa. Seems the endorsements are there for me. Hearing all this from my friend, his opinion I value very much, I am very, very, very excited. My phone # is. Thank you"

Hi Master Hwa,

"I am also bcc to my students about this message, which I find opens many opportunities for interesting glimpses into Tai Chi history as well as our own lineage.  It also provides opportunity to explain what we do albeit by comparison, nevertheless I found it interesting to write.  Perhaps this man will digest this and come to study after all."

Jim Roach

"Jim: I know the confusion. Actually, I regret not meeting him. He is one of the few tai chi practitioner who is truly searching for the truth. Sometime, he told his students " what I taught you last month, forget about it, it is not correct. lets do this way."

Stephen Hwa

Hi Bayne,

I'm under the impresssion from speaking to Master Stephen Hwa, that  Master (see this link as well as others which are in blue font) Stephen Hwa gets the question "are you related to Jou Tsung Hwa" quite a bit. He patiently explains that his surname is Hwa and therefore no relation to Jou (surname Jou).  Actually, at a World Tai Chi Day event while watching a demo of "5 animal frolics", Master Stephen Hwa told me that his family surname Hwa  in original Chinese spelling is Hua.  He also tells me that the family is related to this link of a distant ancestor Hua Tuo who may be the first ancient Chinese surgeon.  

Stephen Hwa mentions the "Dao of Taijiquan" published 1989 in his own book "Uncovering the Treasure" published 2010 and speaks of a couple of Jou's statements.  In his book Hwa, (Stephen Hwa) makes reference to Jou, Tsung Hwa's statement that the "Torso Method" he mentions in "The Tao of Taijiquan, p. A31" is none other than the "Internal Discipline" explained in loving detail in "Uncovering the Treasure , p. 1 and 2,  that he teaches in Classical Taijiquan.

Although Jou also makes mention of Wu Jianquan style Tai Chi in his book, he states that he studied Yang and Chen styles for the most part as the following videos attest to.

 Here is a link to a video of "Jou" and here is a link to a video of "Hwa" and you can get a better idea of what we do vs. what Jou taught.  As a matter of fact, Master Hwa has taught Classical Tai Chi to participants at "Jou's" Tai Chi Farm on occasion.  He makes reference to that in "Uncovering the Treasure" where he describes a "Western Boxer's" unsuccessful and painful attempt to "take a punch" from Hwa (one inch punch popularized by Bruce Lee) without using a pad. Stephen "Hwa's" teacher at this link was Yang Wabu (Young Wabu) who later worked as a Dr. of Osteopathy after working in import/export in Hong Kong but who was highly proficient in numerous martial arts including Bagua Zhang.  He was a known master of Pekkwar Monkey Boxing when he met and learned Taiji from  this link of the renowned martial artist Wu Chien Chuan who along with his father had both worked as bodyguards to the emperor of China.  Early on, Wu had learned the Yang Style from the members of the Yang Family themselves but as described in Wikipedia, Wu later shortened the stances and altered the "frame" in other ways.  

Although I studied with Wu's great grandson Eddie Wu (see this link to picture of my discipleship ceremony on web page), pictures being "worth a thousand words",  for many years, even his frame is somewhat larger than the frame size we use in Classical Taiji.  In addition,(since I studied with both Wu and Hwa) I am the only student of Hwa's that can personally attest to the fact that Wu does not teach internal discipline, however we do. Briefly, the Wu form I learned from Eddie turns from the hips, the form I learned from Hwa turns from the waist, for another thing it is much much smaller.   As a former disciple of Wu, with great respect for the family, I can however attest to the fact that the "internal discipline" of Classical Taiji is really a return to the roots of Taiji before the styles began to change.  When Yang Wabu learned from Wu Chien Chuan, he was learning from the 2nd generation.  Yang Wabu used to teach classes for Wu Kung i (son of Wu Chien Chuan) when Wu was not there.  Yang Wabu's daughter Sonia tells me that she was in Wu Kung i's classes, (but her father was not Kung i's student since he studied with Kung i's father Chien Chuan, Yang was Wu's colleague and not his student) and she used to fight with the men.  She tells me that she was 11 years old and Eddie Wu was only 6 years old and she used to tell Eddie to stop pestering her as little boy's like to do.

Having learned from Chien Chuan himself, Yang's approach was very meticulous as was he himself.  My own opinion is that Gongyi (who says as much in the Qi magazine article) was very interested in attracting as many people as possible.  Therefore, for one thing,  Wu Kung i  did not teach the square form or tight circled round form of his father but instead taught a "rounded square form".  That is the form that I learned from his grandson Eddie Wu in Toronto.  It is quite different from the smaller frame, (in my opinion) highly articulated square form, and compact and tight compact form that I now teach in Classical Taiji.  However, Classical Taiji is still a "Wu's" style, just that as I say...it is a return to the "roots".

You will just need to view my "contact us" page on my website once again and make a decision on which location you wish to study at.  All the information is there, just contact me if you have any further questions or if you wish to begin study and when. If you study at the "Y", you can give the check for $65 to me and I will forward it to the "Y", if you study at the Elmwood location, it is a different situation for the 8 weeks.  Remember, see these links,  I only teach "silk reeling" and "basic walking"  in the beginner classes at both locations. The intermediate/advanced classes are by invitation only.  Please be aware, you need to email me first, due to the small amount of room at the Elmwood location, I cannot accept "walk ins".

James Roach

Hi Bayne,

I am texting this to you for the following: Re. Tai chi. I sent an email to you but it was returned to me, perhaps it went to your spam folder?  I'd like to use your letter in a blog if you have no objections and I won't use your name if you wish.

Sifu Roach,

I have no objections to using anything, my name, whatever.  I am just very excited to start.  I have not been able to sleep.  My friend is so excited too. Please contact soon, I would like to sleep soon.

Hi Bayne,

I cannot call because I am painting the interior of the house. Come to the "Y" tomorrow night, tell the front desk you are visiting.

Sifu Roach,

Thank you so much for your quick response.  Looking forward to it.  When I told my friend you teach the silk reeling and walking, which I am unfamiliar, he said it sounds like the real deal.  I mentioned Master Hwa.  After telling of Master Hwa, he was about to lose it!.  Thanks again.

More methods for training the basic walk of Classical Tai Chi

Video of Classical Tai Chi Walking by Master Stephen Hwa

I am very grateful to my teacher for the work he did in making this video.  Over the years of practice and training students I have discovered a few other methods and observations that can be used for the training. In Classical Tai Chi the basic walk is done with the knees slightly bent and remaining so. When practicing the first lesson of Classical Tai Chi Walk one should first look to stretching the neck up.  Students should also check that they are not watching the ground to see if their feet are correct.  Check the position of the feet  in one of the exercise methods we outline below wherein the student will stand in one spot. The position of the legs can also be checked in this “one spot” method, thus making sure that the thighs line up when the student sits back, or the knee does not go over the front toe when the student leans to the front.  As the student progresses they should find they are automatically stretching the head up and looking forward as well.  This is an important part of the “lean” forward posture where unless checked a student will watch their feet. When one “sits” back, the body should be vertical and perpendicular to the floor

As training progresses, the student will keep the body weight back when they are dropping the foot.  It is a sign of a perpetual beginner to have the body weight lurch when the foot takes a step. The foot pushes down until it is completely flat on the ground then used either to pull the body forward or back.  Until the foot plants firmly the body does not move and hence the body moves in a pulling from one weight shift to another.  One wants to learn to recognize,then end, any kind of rocking action with either lead foot as the weight shifts.  I show this “rocking” in my class by students pulling me  by the arm AS my  lead foot is being planted, then pull me  AFTER my lead foot plants.  This also holds for stepping backward and plant the foot by actually touching the heel to the floor first.  Eliminate the rocking action that occurs with stepping onto the ball of the foot. I will also have them do the same comparative movement.  They readily see the instability of rocking the foot as one is shifting the weight vs. “planting” the foot.

Students who do the basic walk for a while will not stand up when they lift the leg to take a step.  By “standing up”,  I mean that the weight bearing leg does not flex and straighten itself.  This type of flexion will result in the student bobbing up and down as they walk.  Or what might be called a kind of duck walking .  To do the walk correctly, the bend of the standing knee will not change as you lift the other leg,  whether moving forward or backward.  I have my students lightly touch a wall as they move, so lightly that the fingers gently slide as they walk.  I tell them that if they are aware enough, they will actually feel the hand move up and down if the “standing” leg is bobbing up and down as they walk.  Another technique I recommend is to put a piece of tape on a mirror at the level of one’s head as they stand with knees bent. Students   watch   the top of the head as one walks toward it.  Do not bob up and down and  keep looking forward while not watching the ground.  The top of the head should not rise above the tape as the student moves.

Another use for a wall, post, kitchen counter, etc.,   is to isolate the walking practice into a few basic walking steps.  The first advantage of this method is that one does not have to worry about their balance.   In the beginning,  students will inevitably be overly concerned with balance and not able to concentrate on the real movement itself.  With holding on to the wall or post, at least the balance problem takes care of itself so one can give full attention to the actual practice and training of movement.   In a first step, the full planting of the foot while holding the pole will make it less likely that the body lurches forward.  Additionally, the student can check their posture in either lean or sit back positions because they can take an extended pause with no concern for maintaining balance.  Is the rear end tucked in, is the neck stretched up, is there a continuous stretch from top of head to bottom of heel, etc.  ?  In this one position, one should just slowly deliberately shift the weight from front to back while pausing to do the self - check in each posture.

Another method one can use for these exercises is to do numerous continuous walking steps while sliding the hand along a wall.  This method  is slightly different from my teachers which as I iterated involves  holding  a support without moving the hand.  I teach students to practice different exercises while using both methods. The “holding” onto a support is very useful for lessons that involve the training of core movement to move the body.  Students doing this can do many repetitions where they can contract the lower abdomen or tan tien area to move the body either front  or back and shift the weight by pulling.  Eventually, one learns to feel the contractions of the abdomen engage the lower back, buttocks, legs and feet, etc.   I tell students who struggle with feeling the contractions engage with other muscle groups to simply “pull” with the legs. Or as Mike Fittipaldi who is also a teacher put it, to “pull with the knee”.  That is the way that I started out as I gradually began to learn not only to contract the abdominal muscles but also to learn where they contract, how it felt and how to engage the other parts of the body.

One other method I use for “core contraction” training is to have students simply sit in a straight back chair with one foot slightly in front of the other.  I then tell the student to contract the muscles of the lower abdomen while leaning the upper body slightly forward.  From the “lean” position, I then tell students to contact the lower abdomen while pulling the body back to a straight and perpendicular sitting position.  Like the “holding” onto a support while one stands, this sitting in a chair method can generate many, many repetitions to train such core contractions and body movement.  The student thinks and feels what sensations are happening and to look for such things as engagement with the feet to coincide with the pulling action. One can also gradually learn to detect engaged muscle groups such as the back, buttocks, etc. 

Another component or method for training the walking is to hold the support, take a couple of steps either forward or backward and pause at each juncture.  Of particular significance at each “pause” is to check head stretched up, and a stretch from top of head to bottom of heel.  However, an additional check is made on how well the rear end is “tucked” in with both the forward lean and sit back postures.  For the forward lean one still has to try and tuck in the buttocks.  For the sit back posture, one also has to tuck in the buttocks.  In the lean of course, one will not fully tuck under the buttocks as much as one can when sitting back.  I frequently point out to beginners how important the tuck is.  To illustrate this I have them move to touching a wall with the backs of their body.  With their legs straight and not bent at all they see they can run their hand through the curve in their lower back between the back and wall.  Then I have them bend the knees and tuck in the behind while feeling the same area of the lower back.  With their back to the walls I can also have them practice the “one step” method of shifting the body back and forth numerous times.  When they pull back, I urge them to see which part of the back will touch the wall first.  If the shoulders or even the head touches the wall first, the obvious correction is to tuck in the buttocks fully.  The lower back near the sacrum should be touching the wall with no other portion of the back in contact. These types of additional practices besides breaking down the various components of walking thus enable students to practice the most difficult portions of the walking.